This episode features Michael Kirack, founder of Kirack Construction, discussing his 30-year journey from being California's youngest licensed contractor to building a successful diversified construction business in Susanville. Through economic ups and downs, Kirack shares insights about business sustainability, family involvement, community engagement, and the unique advantages of building a life and business in the North State.
[00.00.00] Perry Thompson: Okay so Michael Carrick, Carrick Construction. So you're the founder right? So what's different about your business? In my business is my uncle and my father founded the business. Right. So, um, I took it over, uh, you know, kind of worked in the business with my dad for, you know, a quite a while. And then, um, where you started from the ground up. So I kind of want to. I also heard that you were really young. Uh, you're really young now, right? So we're not going to age you too much. But 21 or 22, when you started the business. Is that sound about right? Sounds about right. Yeah. I got my license, my general, I think I was 20, my general be.
[00.00.44] Michael Kirack: I was 20 years old.
[00.00.46] Perry Thompson: 20 years old. Yeah. So how many contractors in the state at that time were 20? Uh, you got to be one of the younger ones. I'd imagine.
[00.00.53] Michael Kirack: I was the youngest one at the time. Really? Yeah, that's what they told me.
[00.00.58] Perry Thompson: Yeah. That's amazing. So fast forward. So how are this? Is this your 30th year? Is that sound about right?
[00.01.06] Michael Kirack: 30 years. Yeah. Going on 31st. Yeah.
[00.01.09] Perry Thompson: Congratulations. That's a that's a that's a heck of a milestone, buddy. That's a heck of a milestone. So. Yeah. So what's, um. Tell me why you started the company. I mean, let's just start there. Why? What's the. What were you doing at the time? 20 years old. Seems like a not a very typical time to say, hey, I'm going to start my own business.
[00.02.25] Michael Kirack: Well, there's, you know, so you're in school and you're kind of trying to figure out what you're trying to do. As I have a I have a senior in high school right now, which he's trying to figure out what he wants to do. So my dad originally came to Susanville, I think, in 68 to work at the phone company, and that's actually where he met my mom. Um, he was actually a lineman for the, uh, Citizens Utilities. But he, he he wanted to he was fixing up houses on the side, just kind of a little extra hobby thing. And then in the late 70s, he decided he wanted to try and try and build one. So we did one as a family. It took a couple of years. I mean, I was young, I was 8 or 9, you know, not really enough to know, but, you know, kind of fast forward over my, you know, 18 years of schooling in high school. We did three houses as a family, you know what I mean? My dad never had his license or anything, but it was just a weekend hobby type thing. And that's kind of what got me interested in it.
[00.02.33] Perry Thompson: Yeah. That's amazing.
[00.02.34] Michael Kirack: So he, uh.
[00.02.36] Perry Thompson: Wow. And so, did you sell those houses or did you move into them?
[00.02.40] Michael Kirack: Oh, my. We lived in them. We lived in. But every house got a little nicer. Yeah. So our family houses, we always had a, you know, a pretty nice house, considering back in the times, you know. Right,
[00.02.52] Perry Thompson: right. Yeah.
[00.02.54] Michael Kirack: But that got me interested in construction. So, uh, in high school, uh, junior senior year, I was, uh, doing little remodel jobs and decks and and different things. Uh, we're actually got my start making money was, uh, del distributing, which was a beer plant. Local beer plant here in Susanville. Yeah. Uh, actually started working there in the sixth grade, believe it or not.
[00.03.17] Perry Thompson: No way.
[00.03.18] Michael Kirack: I run in for packing cans. I mean, it was. Yeah, it was pretty cool. I got the opportunity to to do that because we knew the owner, my family. Yeah
[00.03.28] Perry Thompson
I see, yeah, I'd say that's probably one of the biggest tragedies happening to our youth now is that, you know, legally they can't work until they're, in most cases, 18. But I think like high school, if it's 16, if they have a note and their parents agreed to it and the employer agrees to it and a lot of insurance companies won't cover, you know, kids under under 18. So unfortunately, a lot of kids I was like you, Michael, I started working really, really young. And I, I think that's one of the disturbances we're doing to the youth now is not letting them feel that, I don't know, you feel pretty good about bringing a paycheck home, right. And, uh, you actually have some of your own money. And I think it's established as a work ethic real early.
[00.04.16] Michael Kirack: So a sense of accomplishment early on.
[00.04.18] Perry Thompson: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So so that's how so you're you're doing that and then what makes you go and get your license. You know, what's the what's what's the jump over there.
[00.04.28] Michael Kirack: So I right out of high school I went to work I worked for a couple local contractors here, uh, Dave Lee construction. I started with him right out of high school and worked with him one summer. And then I went to work for Kevin de Rose. Uh, worked for him for about three years. And I just realized that, you know, I wanted something more. I wanted I just didn't want to take home, uh, you know, a weekly
[00.04.51] Perry Thompson: weekly paycheck.
[00.04.54] Michael Kirack: I wanted to be in the game. I wanted to make the money. If I'm doing the work, I wanted to, you know, reap the rewards.
[00.05.01] Perry Thompson: Right. So so let's talk about that because at this time you're 19 or 20. So how do you know what the rewards are? Because I mean let's talk about there's a lot of risks with starting your own company. Right. There's you know, there's a lot of things that can go wrong as well. So tell me how in your mind was your. Hey, I wasn't even worried about that. I didn't even think about the risk because I didn't really understand them that well. So I just dove in or. What was your thought process back then?
[00.05.32] Michael Kirack: Well, I didn't have a family. I didn't have a wife or anything. I mean, I still lived at home, so I mean, there wasn't a lot of risk. I mean, the hardest thing I had was I didn't have any money. Um, I just had the money that I had that I was making, you know, just regular wages. So it wasn't like I had a bunch of money to go out and buy real estate or any of that type of thing. So the hardest thing was, was actually getting credit to borrow the money to move forward. That was one of the hardest things that that I stumbled across
[00.06.05] Perry Thompson: because I thought, why did you do it? How did you get the money to
[00.06.09] Michael Kirack: start? So I always paid cash for everything because that's how I was. So I had a new pickup truck that I bought and some other equipment trailers. I had a couple of those that I paid cash for. So I went to Plumas Bank, which was a branch here locally, local bank. And they actually, uh, they loaned me the money against that equipment that I had, the truck and trailers.
[00.06.33] Perry Thompson: C excellent.
[00.06.34] Michael Kirack: So they gave me a lot of credit. It was like 25 grand to get started.
[00.06.38] Perry Thompson: Okay. And so kind of do you remember what some of your your big milestone projects that kind of transitioned you from one size to the next size and kind of talked through that for the first few years.
[00.06.52] Michael Kirack: So it was a lot of single family residence is just, you know, maybe 1 or 2 here and there. And then I stepped up and did and was doing 5 to 8. And then the big one of my biggest milestones was a subdivision up, uh, Shadow Mountain. Uh, it was 100 units. Uh, built that about halfway out. Uh, that was one of my big milestones. And then it's just kind of morphed from there.
[00.07.20] Perry Thompson: Yeah. So that built that half. So was that your subdivision or did a developer hire you to build the houses on their subdivision?
[00.07.28] Michael Kirack: No, that was all mine. I bought the raw land and developed it.
[00.07.32] Perry Thompson: Wow. Geez. And how old were you at that time? Oh,
[00.07.39] Michael Kirack: late 20s probably.
[00.07.42] Perry Thompson: Winkle. That's unbelievable. I feel like you've. I'd give you some crap about you. You're kind of gone backwards. What the hell? Yeah. It's crazy. I'm kidding. I that blows me away. I'm. I'm teasing you. But that blows me away that you're building. You have 100 lot subdivision that you did yourself and your late 20s that. You know, my banker was here just a couple of days ago, and he was talking about how, um, one of the housing, in his opinion, one of the housing challenges now and the reason housing is so even when the economy is kind of shaking, interest rates are high, they're still pretty high demand for houses in most markets. And he was explaining that, um, the new those two that post 2008 laws that came into effect, uh, one of the big ones was used to be able to, um, when you start a subdivision, you as you, you could pull, uh, you could kind of pull money out as you were going, as you were selling houses, you could the owner could pull money out as he went. And now, you know, to it's more complicated than this, but the nickel version is you can't pull any money as the owner, not even to pay taxes. Uh, until the thing is completely until the bank is completely paid out, is what he was explaining to me, you know, and so he said, it's really crippled that subdivision world. Uh, unless, you know, the people are independently wealthy and can kind of self-fund it. But the banks are kind of out of that game. So it's hard money lenders. It's more of that stuff that's kind of made it more difficult for most people. Have you seen that? Um, well, so 2008, that was the I was just getting that. That's why I say I only built half the subdivision out because, see. Okay. Ten 07I mean, we're selling houses up there for almost half $1 million. I mean, these are, you know, nice houses, but they're spec, you know, they're smaller houses, right? I'm just thinking, how are these people affording this? How how can this keep going? Because it was insane. Yeah. So as we start creeping closer to oh eight, I started seeing, you know, things were getting soft. I wasn't I didn't have a backlog of people saying, I want houses, I want houses, you know, I ended up having 2 or 3 houses that were done sitting and I wasn't selling them. Yeah.
[00.10.05] Michael Kirack: So I started scaling back and I did not complete the the other 50 lots. I had all the roads and, or the, I had the streets and the pads cut. I stopped at underground and it's a good thing I did. If I were to slopped, I would, I would have been done.
[00.10.23] Perry Thompson: Yeah, I was going to say it's pretty incredible in your late 20s to have the discipline to recognize that the economy is changing, number one. And then number two, when you're making money, everything's going great to recognize that change and just not because, you know, at that point, you know, I'm a couple years older than you, but at that point we've been through some recessions younger, but nothing like zero eight. Nobody had been through anything like zero eight. So it's incredible to me that you had the foresight to go, this isn't just going to be a little blip. I got to stop. So especially in your late 20s, I feel like you don't. Most people don't have that level of maturity to go. I mean, especially when you're making money doing really well. You're like, oh, it'll turn around. I'm just going to keep going because I want to keep this money going. So why do you suppose you were different than most people? Because a lot of people in oh eight just kept building. I mean, they just we watched it happen. And then bankruptcy after bankruptcy after bankruptcy of builders. Uh, so why were you different, do you think? Well, when you, when you
[00.11.28] Michael Kirack: work hard, I mean, you know, I was working 80, 90 hours a week. Just go, go, go. When you work hard for something you don't want, you don't want to lose it. I've always been that way. I mean, when you work your ass off and.
[00.11.41] Perry Thompson: And potentially you could lose it overnight. Um, I was, you know, that was the point where I started getting cautious on stuff. And I had actually, I mean, I wasn't I was making really good money, but I was not spending it. I was actually investing it and holding on to it. And that's what led me through the recession.
[00.12.03] Michael Kirack: I mean, it drained a lot of what I had saved up, but that's what that's what kept me going.
[00.12.10] Perry Thompson: So when you say you invested it, can you kind of elaborate on that? I mean, you don't have to have super details, but just in general kind of where were you investing in in your own rentals, where you put it under your pillow? Uh, what were you what were you doing? So I'm, I'm a I'm a guy that doesn't put all my eggs in one basket. So I had it in rentals. I had it in the stock market. Um, I had it in cash. I just had it kind of dispersed all over the place, right? I mean, I bought real estate that, you know, I bought it really cheap, and I knew it was worth quite a bit and I could sell it at any time.
[00.12.50] Michael Kirack: Right. So stuff like that.
[00.12.52] Perry Thompson: Yeah. Yeah. So fast forward a couple years. Um, did you ever finish building out that subdivision? Just out of curiosity? Nope.
[00.13.01] Michael Kirack: Still sitting up there.
[00.13.03] Perry Thompson: No kidding. Yeah. You kidding? So why? I mean, I feel like I know Susanville is not a real, you know, um. It's not a blow up type of market. You know, it's, uh, the population is has been fairly stable, maybe even declining a little bit. Is that is that why or I feel like like, for example, during Covid when things were going crazy, why didn't you open up some and start building some houses then when there was some pretty high demand,
[00.13.31] Michael Kirack: the demand here isn't that great. I mean, the people can't afford the stuff,
[00.13.36] Perry Thompson: right? Right. I mean, the cost of, of goods and services for, for new construction is just crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, that's one of the things I've always admired about you is your real cautious about how you, you run your business and you have been really diversified with rentals and the type of work that you do. You do vertical, you do some horizontal stuff that's kind of in our realm. Um, you, you are much more diversified than most people realize, I think. So can you just you even said it earlier. And just how you why is that been a philosophy since it's such an early age? Obviously it's worked for you, so that's one reason you've kept it going. But why did you have the vision and kind of the clarity to know that you needed to have a lot of, a lot of your money and different eggs and different baskets. Well, the I mean, just that just to have the money at your fingertips when you need it, that's the biggest thing. So in real estate you don't have it at your fingertips. But like the the market, depending on where you put it, you can pull it in and out at any time, maybe with some
[00.14.48] Michael Kirack: penalties here and there. Um, well, I always say cash is king, so I mean, having the cash in the bank was the biggest thing that, you know, make your payments and pay payroll and ride the storm out. Yeah. It was what I did. I mean, it's still I mean, it's taken, you know, it took ten years to get back. I mean, I was set if the market would have kept going the way it was going back in oh eight, I mean, I'd have been done, you know, I'd have been retired at 35. Yeah, that changed the whole. Changed the whole name of the game.
[00.15.25] Perry Thompson: Right, right. That's awesome. That's incredible. Okay. All right. So, um, let's talk about kind of your involvement with the community. So we both kind of work in, in small towns and small communities to be in business for 30 years. Number one, I've got to congratulate you on, you know, because everyone knows who you are. And one of the challenges of being in a small community is you've got to really treat people right, because you you just can't. For example, you can't prioritize profit over, over doing the right thing. And sometimes the right thing means even, uh, even when you're right, you've got to take the high road, if you know what I'm saying. So you're saying. Yeah. So, um, kind of talk about how. Because one thing I will say about you is you're pretty unfiltered. Uh, usually. I mean, you're doing a great job on this podcast, by the way. But I've been around you enough at things that you are pretty damn unfiltered about things and giving people a hard time and giving them shit. And, uh, which is which is awesome. And I feel like it's probably, you know, 90% of the people out there absolutely love you. And there's probably 10% that can't stand you. So come talk about
[00.16.36] Michael Kirack: it's probably more than 10%.
[00.16.39] Perry Thompson: I know, I don't know about that. I think one thing I will say is everybody respects you. You know, that's that's for damn sure. Um, and how could they not? But, uh, just kind of talk about small town. And then if you guys. I know you've been doing some work in Greenville, what is kind of your sphere and then how have you kind of managed making it in, in small towns?
[00.17.00] Michael Kirack: So what I also did I got my General bee my license back early 90s. Well I also. So with the general be you just can't go out and bid on like a roof job or a window job. I mean, you got to have other specific licenses. So every four years I went and got another license. So I think right now I have six licenses. So I can I can go out and chase like just a roof job. I can go out and, you know, slurry parking lots, striping. I mean I think that's a C 32. I have AC8 for doing concrete work. So I mean, I'm diversified a lot that way. So I can go chase stuff that a lot of general B guys can't chase unless there's 2 or
[00.17.49] Perry Thompson: 3 trades involved.
[00.17.51] Michael Kirack: So that's helped in a small community. I mean, it's because a lot of people, you know, they may not need a house built, but they need a roof or they need some windows, you know, and the little jobs, I mean, there is profit in them if you bit them, right? I mean, I mean, we'll do anything from installing a screen door to, you know, building a subdivision. I mean, it's, it's it's there. I mean, as long as it's, it'll, it'll pay the bills.
[00.18.17] Perry Thompson: Yeah. So talk about your kind of employee makeup and your management makeup. I mean, how many employees do you have? How many managers do you have? Kind of what does it look like? I mean, I, I have a feel, but for those that will be listening that don't know, talk us through that a little bit. So I think right now I'm running 28 full time employees. And then I have, um, I have three girls in my office. I have an estimator in my office that does goes out and does a lot of the estimating.
[00.18.45] Michael Kirack: And then I'm running for
[00.18.48] Perry Thompson: different crews,
[00.18.50] Michael Kirack: uh, gutters, uh, two remodel crews, uh, two construction crews. So it's just kind of a everybody we try and train everybody to know how to do everything. So at any point in time, if we're short on a crew, I can grab a guy from another crew and move him over. So that's kind of our business model
[00.19.11] Perry Thompson: is just kind of training
[00.19.12] Michael Kirack: everybody on everything if they're willing to learn.
[00.19.16] Perry Thompson: Yeah. And so are you finding these employees locally? Almost exclusively.
[00.19.23] Michael Kirack: Yeah. I mean, it's we I probably get 2 to 3 applications a week. Um, a lot of the applications are people trying to start out, and I'm all about, you know, hiring somebody and training them. But when you need skilled people, it's hard. It's hard to find skilled people when you need them.
[00.19.43] Perry Thompson: So are you. Do you have a, um, how many years have most employees been with you? Do they stick with you a lot, or is there pretty high turnover in your world? Talk about that a little bit. I got
[00.19.54] Michael Kirack: guys have been with me since I started.
[00.19.57] Perry Thompson: That's amazing. They're still here. Yeah. I mean, I would say average is probably.
[00.20.06] Michael Kirack: Seven, eight years. Nine years. Okay. And they're still here. So it could go even further. Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, it's great that you're doing that training. You know, there's a lot of people. Um, I, I've heard a lot from a lot of other business owners, man. Just about the time I train him and I get them where they need to be, they leave, they move on. And so one of the things that we figured out, uh, is when we're really trying to find, you know, a pretty talented employee, we try and one of a kind of prerequisites, obviously, is, you know, is our core values. That's a huge thing for us. But and then in addition to that, um, it's kind of having some roots tied to the communities we work in. Right. So they've got family that lives here. They grew up here, they moved away. They want to come back. Um, one thing that we have learned is it doesn't matter how much money you pay somebody if they don't want to live, uh, and recognize, you know, there's pros and cons everywhere, and you live. Right? So if you live in the city, uh, there's a Starbucks in every corner. There's lots of shopping. There's all that kind of stuff. Um.
[00.21.15] Perry Thompson: But you couldn't pay me to live in a city. Now when? Up here. Uh, outdoor recreation. Where? Where we get to work every day just blows my mind. We're not in any traffic jams. Um, it's just an incredible place to work. But what we figured out is you have to find like minded people where they also recognize the strengths of these communities. Um, and oftentimes it's not just, you know, if you're hiring a male position, their wife has to also see those things because we've had some guys that have they love it. And then their wife is like, wait, there's no Starbucks. There's no, you know, TJ Maxx, uh, I'm out of here. Right. And so have you kind of done the same thing with Community roots or you've been have you been successful in bringing people from out of the area and making them stick?
[00.22.06] Michael Kirack: Um, just all my employees, they're they're they're local. I mean, it's they have families here. I mean, they've been in the area for a long time. A lot of my family works for me. Um, so that's, you know, that's built in, uh, excellence right there. I mean, it's, I mean, they've helped me through the years. I mean, just hard working, hard workers. I mean, that that's a lot.
[00.22.31] Perry Thompson: So you know that's a great transition. So your brother Darren works with you. So you're the sole you and your wife are the sole owners of the business. Is that correct?
[00.22.40] Michael Kirack: I'm sole owner. You're sole owner. Okay. So you're sole owner and your brother works for you and has a pretty important role in the company. Your sister in law, Julie, works in, in the office there in a very important role. So talk about, uh, one of the things I wanted to tell you, I was talking to Julie before our, our podcast and, and first of all, she just said a bunch of just super complimentary things about you. But one of them was, you know, a lot of people, Michael is has the biggest heart of anybody I've ever met. And coming from a sister in law, I think that's extra special because, you know, sister in laws, they know your flaws as well, right? So they they know, they
[00.23.25] Perry Thompson: know, um, and they work closely with you. And so I think that speaks a lot to that. Um, even though you're the sole owner, that family owned feel I get from your company, I feel like every all, all the people there feel like that their owners, especially your brother and your sister in law and even your dad. I know your dad runs around in a in a company pick up a lot. I see him out and about all the time. So just talk about having family involved. I mean, you just you talked a little bit about it, but can you expand on it a little bit more for us? Well, one of the biggest things is, is the trust. I mean, we've always been a close knit family. I mean, I can I can trust them with anything. I don't have to worry about things. I mean, it's it's it's a good feeling. I mean, we don't. Me and my brother never argued, never fought, never any of that when we were younger. I mean, if we if we did, we'd probably got our asses kicked by the dad, by our dad. So, you know, you got to get wrong. So, you know, if it wasn't, if it wasn't for my family, I wouldn't be where I'm at today. I mean, it's it's been a huge help to me. I mean, it's having Darren. Darren is one of the smartest, hardest working persons I've ever. I've ever been around. I mean, he can literally do anything. Yeah. And that helps. I mean, and he's he's probably, um, more he's the cautious one. I mean, I'll tell him, hey, go do this. Let's just get that done. He's like, no, Michael, you need to call USA before you stick a bucket in the ground or you need to go get a building permit. I'm like, no, get it done and be done before anybody knows about it. And Darren's like,
[00.25.04] Michael Kirack: no, we're going to do this the right way. So he's the little birdy sitting up on my shoulder telling me, hey, slow it down and do it right. Yeah.
[00.25.14] Perry Thompson: That's amazing. Yeah. And I would agree. Um, yeah. So I have Westen in, in the business with me, and, uh, he he's a he's the co-owner of the company, but I, I remember going after him for two years when he was working for Granite Construction and SNC construction, and I'm like, I need help, but you you've got to come home. I knew he wanted to come home eventually. Um, you know, because it's a great place to raise kids. But at that point, he wasn't there yet, you know? And, uh, I know exactly what you mean. Having somebody, you know, has your back and, uh, is just really has the best interest of you and the company at heart at all times. And that that is priceless. It's an absolute priceless gift to have within the company. And, uh, you know, I'm sure you can get that without it being family, but I think, uh, I think family is kind of, uh, fast forwards that process a little bit, you know, because you've spent a lifetime building that trust, you know, you know, that there stand up people. And because you've been with them your whole life and you just know, whereas somebody that you hire, you know, it takes a while to build. Well, you'll never emulate a lifetime of trust, I guess, is what the what it boils down to. Right?
[00.26.26] Michael Kirack: Right. Well, bottom line is you're only as good as your employees. I mean,
[00.26.30] Perry Thompson: that's 100%. Yeah. So, Michael, one of the things let's just talk about that for a minute because that's another segue. So one of the things that we started doing about, oh boy, 7 or 8 years ago, maybe nine years ago, um, is we really started leaning hard into our core values of just, you know, we identified them and then but to part of living them is basically the Nicole version is no, no aholes, no jerks. Right. That's and we had we had people that were really talented but were toxic for the culture, if you know what I mean. So like like they can do their job, they can do it really well. But people don't trust them. They don't like them, but they're performers. They bring in a lot of money, you know, whatever, whatever it is, or they're just a fantastic master mechanic, you know, whatever the thing is. And we really as a company, we had all these excuses like, well, you don't understand how hard it is to, uh, to keep to have a really talented employee in these rural communities and blah, blah, blah. You have all these damn excuses. And I'll tell you, our company really transformed when we started letting go those people. And it was terrifying because, um. You're not sure you're going to get anybody that good, you know, because they have a very specific talent set that you just can't find anywhere, especially in small towns. And so we started doing that. And one of the things is our culture got stronger. Our people, um, the team just pulled together even more and I'll be gushed every single time we did that, we'd have like two incredible people walk in the door, just like the universe or God or whatever you want to call it is blessing you for making the right decision to protect the team, right? Protect your culture from those aholes have. I'm just kind of curious how you deal with that in your small towns. Do you kind of have a similar strategy or do you? Oh,
[00.28.35] Michael Kirack: same thing. I
[00.28.36] Perry Thompson: yeah, I've kept people because you know, like you say, they they have skills. I didn't think I could be without them because of their skills. Um, they made me money, but they created a toxic work environment. I mean, it would cause issues with other employees and HR nightmare. I mean, and like you're saying, when you finally realize, you know, bottom the day I let let one of them go was probably one of the best days in my company, because there was actually two other guys stepped forward, right, wanted that, knew how to do their job, and wanted to do their job. They were just afraid to even
[00.29.19] Michael Kirack: be around because of how toxic the employee was. Right. Right.
[00.29.24] Perry Thompson: So it was it was a huge relief. You know, once you figure, once you figure it out, and then that's another thing I don't I don't like the feeling of having somebody, you know, you you feel like somebody's got a hold on you. And yeah, once that hold is let go. I mean, it
[00.29.43] Michael Kirack: it's it's it's
[00.29.46] Perry Thompson: it's great.
[00.29.47] Michael Kirack: Yeah, we've talked about that, too. Um, you know, never being held hostage. Right? So it's it's bad for the company. It's bad for all the employees. And it's your job to protect them from that. But, yeah, we had examples in the past where, you know, um, an individual has a very particular skill set, like, for example, running an asphalt plant. Right. And you never want to be held hostage. Asphalt plants turn a lot of volume, a lot of dollar volume. And you never we don't have that happening now. But there was a time in that we had some people kind of holding us hostage. Like where? What are you going to do if you get rid of me? And those were really difficult people to get rid of. And like you said, the moment that we did, everything got better. Like the very next week, people stepped up that you didn't think would step up. And everybody pulled together and it was like, you know, circle the wagons type of thing to protect the team and protect the company. And I had nothing. Nothing. Demoralizes an employee like the owner tolerating a toxic employee. Right. And so that's the I guess that's the knuckle version of what you're saying. And, uh, we've seen that same thing in our company, so yeah. That's awesome. All right. So, um.
[00.31.05] Perry Thompson: This is really good. Michael. I really appreciate, you know, all of this. Let's talk a little bit about what do you do for fun. You know, I know you work a lot of hours. So what do you do for fun. Because this is a little bit about, you know, you and the business and you're kind of community relations. Um, we'll talk about. Well, actually, before we do that, let's talk about your involvement with the community. Um, I kind of see you everywhere. You're in rotary. You're in. So can you just talk about some of your your community participation and what you and your company do?
[00.31.37] Michael Kirack: So my I've been in rotary, which you're in rotary too. I've been in rotary I think for almost 30
[00.31.43] Perry Thompson: years. I think
[00.31.44] Michael Kirack: I started kidding. Yeah.
[00.31.45] Perry Thompson: Wow. So like when you're in your early 20s, you're in rotary. That's amazing. Yeah.
[00.31.51] Michael Kirack: So I actually was in l. I got signed up for the Elks, uh, before I went into rotary. So those are the two things that I do. And we do a lot of community stuff. Um, we used to do a lot more things have kind of kind of tapered off because of Covid, but we're starting to get back into it.
[00.32.11] Perry Thompson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I see that you guys do a lot of stuff with youth sports and sponsoring teams and, uh, you know, and then anytime the community reaches out and says, hey, we need help. Whether it's a construction oriented thing, fixing something, you guys are one of the first people always involved in that. And so kind of tell me why why you do that. What's your thought process behind that? I
[00.32.34] Michael Kirack: don't know, when somebody asks for help. I mean, if it's legit and, you know, it's I'll help them. I mean, it's it's just part of it's part of being in a small community. I mean, I make my living from these from everybody in the community here. So you have to give back. I mean, you just can't take it all and not give back.
[00.32.54] Perry Thompson: Yeah, 100%. Well, you know what's what's great about you, Michael, is, um. You know, it's it comes from a place of really wanting to help, you know, and like you said, legitimate. Because I'm sure like like us. Um, if if you just said if you answered every single call, that's all you do. Um, and so you do kind of have to be somewhat selective on and so kind of ours is mostly around kids, you know, and the future. That's kind of what we're oriented around. Most of our charitable giving for age, FFA, uh, youth sports, you know, those kinds of things. Um, because there were people and I participated in all those things, and there were people, um, that were doing it for me when I was a kid. And then that's a great way to give back. And it also adds clarity, because you can kind of get pretty crazy with the whole donation thing and, and donate yourself into bankruptcy pretty fast. And that's you have a team to protect and people to protect on your the that relying on the company being successful. But the youth orientation for us has been super helpful for that. So do you guys just answer the call in general, or do you have some sort of alignment around around how you prioritize your charitable contributions in the community?
[00.34.14] Michael Kirack: So a lot of it's it's just what you were saying. It's based around the youth.
[00.34.18] Perry Thompson: I mean, it's it's they're starting out. You know, they need uniforms or they need sponsorships for their teams or, you know, buying their animal at at the fair. You know, that's to get them going. I mean, that's kind of where we're at on on. Yeah. As, as you get older and start realizing I mean, back in the day when I started, I was sponsoring, you know, uh, men's and women's softball teams and doing stuff for, you know, golf
[00.34.49] Michael Kirack: tournaments. And, but once you have kids, you realize, you know, it's the use of the youth is what needs the money, not the older people. It's kind of the way I look at it.
[00.35.01] Perry Thompson: And it's it's nothing better than seeing a kid smile once, you know, you give him a cheque for, you know, something, an animal or a sponsorship for his team. I mean, it's
[00.35.11] Michael Kirack: it's it's rewarding to me.
[00.35.14] Perry Thompson: Yeah. Yeah. So can you talk a little bit about I know I think you were busy working and didn't do a lot of sports when you're growing up, but your kids are pretty heavily invested in sports. So can you talk about how how you grew up versus how your kids are growing up and kind of what you're I know that you're a pretty proud parent and we should be your your kids are kicking butt. So talk about that for us for a little bit. So
[00.35.39] Michael Kirack: right now my oldest son is in.
[00.35.44] Perry Thompson: Mount Shasta at a basketball tournament right now. And my youngest son is in Portola right now at a basketball tournament. So and they're both doing really well there. I mean, it's,
[00.35.56] Michael Kirack: um, I played a little bit of sports when I was younger, but it just wasn't really something that
[00.36.03] Perry Thompson: it, you know, your
[00.36.05] Michael Kirack: family does different things. We weren't heavy on sports.
[00.36.08] Perry Thompson: Yeah, absolutely. So we did more hunting and fishing and, you know, cutting wood and, you know, just hanging out with a family, which is what made me who I am today. Absolutely.
[00.36.21] Michael Kirack: Uh, my wife, she's heavy into sports. She went to Colorado State. She's played just about every sport there is. Um, and my kids, they just, uh. I mean, early on, we could tell that they were excellent athletes, and it's something they enjoy doing. And so we give them carte blanche if you want to play it, go after it.
[00.36.42] Perry Thompson: Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. You know, my kids also were very, very sports oriented. Um, and I'll tell you when you find I don't think it even has to be sports. It could be, you know, hunting because my oldest is really into hunting and fishing and all of that stuff too, in addition to the sports he played. But. If watching. I enjoyed playing sports. I loved it, but I'll tell you, the one thing I love even more is watching my kids do something they love. They've worked really hard on that skill set to be that they love, and to watch them go out and really do extremely well. And whatever that passion is, is even more fulfilling to watch than it was to play. Uh, and it's, um, I really, really enjoy it. So, um, have you been able to catch quite a few games and, and follow them around a bit at this point I
[00.37.37] Michael Kirack: go to every game. Yeah, no matter what's going on. I mean, as soon as we're done here, I'm going to. I'm going to bolt.
[00.37.44] Perry Thompson: Yeah. That's amazing. That's
[00.37.46] Michael Kirack: amazing. I'm really proud of you. Yeah, yeah, you got to watch it. I mean, it goes so fast. You just can't not. I missed a lot of. I missed a lot of, uh, baseball games because I was on fires over the summer. And I look back now and I thought, you know, the money was good and all that, but it wasn't. It's not worth missing
[00.38.07] Perry Thompson: the games. Yeah, well, that is so well said. Um, you know, and there's, you know, our kids understand we run businesses and there's a few things you're going to have to miss here and there. But when you can make it, uh, I promise you, because I'm older than you, my kids are all all out of college and in their careers now. You will never regret one minute of pulling out early and going to watch them play and do the things that they love. You will never regret that, and the only regret you'll have is that you didn't do it more, but you're doing a great job on that arena. So, um, all right, now what I want to kind of transition to now is, uh, let's talk about so this is a North State Rocks podcast, right? So why is it great living where we live, working where we live, as opposed to, you know, people in the city, for example, just contrasting the two different lifestyles. What do you do for fun? What do you do? If somebody was coming to this area for the first time, you know, the Susanville community that I know you're a big, uh snowmobiler. Right. And you guys have a wakeboard boat. So just kind of talk about some hunting, fishing, talk about some of the things that make this area unique for you and your family.
[00.39.21] Michael Kirack: You know, I always
[00.39.22] Perry Thompson: say, uh, we're living in God's country. I mean, it it does not get any better than this. I mean, we got three lakes within a half hour. We got the high mountain ranges. I mean, any hunting, I mean, you can hunt every species known to man here. I mean, except, like, zebras and stuff. But I mean, the chucker, the quail dove, deer. I mean, my boys love hunting. So we we put in for tags every year, and I haven't, haven't drawn a tag in 20 years, but that's just part of the system, I guess. But,
[00.40.00] Michael Kirack: um. No, just it's it's great. I mean, the commute to work five, ten minutes. Um,
[00.40.08] Perry Thompson: so we snowmobile, we wakeboard side by side. Dirt bikes, jet skis. I mean, anything and everything. I mean, everybody's all, well, you guys have all this stuff, and you always do all this. I go, yeah, this. It's local. We stay here, we don't vacation. I mean, I haven't been on a vacation in probably 20 years. I mean, it's
[00.40.31] Michael Kirack: this is our vacation. I mean, we'll go we'll go take off on the weekends and go side by side. And they're dirt bike. And, I mean, it's just a beautiful place to live. It's not overrun with people. I mean, it's quality lifestyle. I mean, we're not breathing in smog. I mean, it's it's great. Yeah, you said that beautifully. Good job buddy. That's great. I'm ready. I'm ready to move to Susanville right now. That's your
[00.40.57] Perry Thompson: house. That's awesome. All right, so kind of tell me, uh, let's get back to you just a little bit more on your business stuff. So where do you see the future of your company? Kind of. I know you're highly diversified. What do you think is going to be the main pillars of your business over the next 5 to 10 years?
[00.41.21] Michael Kirack: Yeah, that's a good question, Perry. You're putting me on the spot.
[00.41.24] Perry Thompson: Yeah, I'm putting you on the spot. Hell, yeah. So it's kind of an interesting time right now. Um, I had one of the best years I've ever had this year. Um, I don't know what. Next year, we got a lot on the books. Kind of like you guys looking good. Um, the following year, I mean, it's going to be going to be a little shaky. I can't nothing I can really predict on that. Yeah.
[00.41.49] Michael Kirack:mI mean, we don't know what interest rates are going to do. I mean,
[00.41.53] Perry Thompson: our little towns kind of kind of die in here. I mean, that's
[00.41.56] Michael Kirack: it's sad to say, and I
[00.41.58] Perry Thompson: hate to say it, but
[00.42.00] Michael Kirack: I mean, we're not getting any new business
[00.42.01] Perry Thompson: here. Um, things are just kind of status quo. I mean, the thing that that's hard about it is you drive 80 miles to Reno and they're, you know, they're building 10,000 homes a year there. It's just insane.
[00.42.18] Michael Kirack: Yeah. I mean, so I don't know, I know my business model. We're we're chasing a lot
[00.42.24] Perry Thompson: more. Um. If you want to call it government stuff, um, prevailing wage jobs, but you don't know if all that stuff's going to dry up. Um, right.
[00.42.36] Michael Kirack: You just don't know. So you've just got to scoop up as much as you can and just kind of roll through. It's kind of my philosophy, but I mean, it's it's hard to sell it.
[00.42.46] Perry Thompson: So is it fair to say that kind of your thought process is be as diversified as possible so that you can pivot to wherever the work, whatever the type of work that comes, you're able to capitalize on it. Is that a fair statement?
[00.43.01] Michael Kirack: Fair statement?
[00.43.02] Perry Thompson: Yeah. Yeah. So there's a book. It's it's like a grammar school level read. Um, but it's called the Who Moved My Cheese. Have you ever have you ever read that book or heard of that book? Uh, yeah. So, yeah. So the premise of the book, it's really simple, but it's it's, um, it's basically two, two little mice and two little mini people, and they both have names, uh, and they're in this big maze, right? Like a mouse maze. And the four of them are all looking for cheese or run around, you know, because I got to eat. So they're running around the maze looking for cheese. And, uh, Nicole version is, you know, one day they find a little bit of cheese and they keep working, and then they find a little more cheese. One day, they find a mountain of cheese, like the type of mountain that's like, oh my gosh. So the little mini people the size of the mouse and this example, they build, they they get fat, they start getting super comfortable. They build huge houses right next to the cheese. Um, they, uh, really plant roots solidly in that section of the maze. And, uh, and the mice, you know, every day they, they eat the, their share of cheese that they need to survive. But then they put on their shoes and they're out every day searching the maze for more cheese. And the fat little people are sitting there going, wow, you look, look, we got a mountain right here of cheese. Why are you why are you guys out doing that? And that's just how the mice are wired. They just go and look every day. Well, on the far corner of the maze, they find, you know, a great big thing of cheese. And so they recognize the. They know where. Other cheeses in the maze. One day the mountain of cheese disappears. And the little many people are, you know, victim mindset. Who? Who moved our cheese? This is bullshit. We have our houses built here. Whole life is wrapped around this, and now we have to move. I'm overweight, can't really even don't even want to go look through the maze. And the whole point is, is that you can never get comfortable doing what you're doing. Right. And that's the Nicole version. And I think that that's I think that your company really exemplifies that, um, you guys aren't just a vertical guys. You guys are doing underground work. You're doing seal coding, you're doing concrete work, but yet you are the dominant, uh, the dominant company in the region for vertical construction and, you know, have a have an excellent reputation. And then I feel like you have leveraged that reputation into doing all that other type of work and that your, your brand name is so strong that even the very first time you did seal coating, people are like, That's Michael, he's going to do a good job even though you'd never done it before. Right. And so, um, that's something I really admire about your company. That's a really incredible thing where our company is kind of very much around building a niche that has really high boundaries to entry. And, you know, people are always asking me, why have you thought about moving out of California because of all the challenges associated with the state. And I'm like, well, number one, I'm like, Michael, I love where I live, I. So we either going to be part of the part of the solution and try and make a change and convince people that you're missing one of the most beautiful areas on the planet to live. We do quite a bit of traveling, um, out of the area and out of the country. And I'll tell you, every time I come back, I'm like, why did we even leave? It is so beautiful where we get to live. So anyway, congratulations on having just an incredible an incredible model. Um, and congratulations on 30 years of being in business, stud. That's that's pretty amazing, man. Pretty amazing. So I think it's a good time to wrap. I mean, we we got through pretty quick. Um, is there anything that you're thinking about that we should cover that you would want to talk about at this point? Well, no. Like you said, every time I drive over to Reno and see all them subdivisions and all them houses going in, I think to myself, man, if I could just dove in over here early on, I'd be be be one of those big boys over there. And I get over there and I drive around and fight the traffic, fight the people. And like you said, you know, when you cross the border and come back home, it's it's all well worth it. Yeah.
[00.47.34] Michael Kirack: Yeah. I just, I, I just hope and I know it's possible
[00.47.39] Perry Thompson: for somebody to do
[00.47.40] Michael Kirack: some economic development for around here because I mean look at like Downey ville, I mean all the mountain biking and all the activities Downey is doing. And we we have all that stuff here. Just nobody promotes it.
[00.47.53] Perry Thompson: Yeah. So how do we. So let's just talk about what can we do? You know, when I'm talking about you and me and people that might be listening, what can we do to try and open people's eyes and and try and be more, more a catalyst for change on trying to instead of having a a population in these rural communities that continues to shrink slowly. How do how do we reverse that trend in your mind?
[00.48.21] Michael Kirack: Well, you're doing it right now with your podcast. I mean, it's going to get people out there knowing, you know, what kind of place this is. I mean, one of the biggest things is, is getting getting people. There's people that live here that know how to do all this.
[00.48.37] Perry Thompson: You know, the promotion and
[00.48.39] Michael Kirack: promoting what we have. They just don't have the platform to do it.
[00.48.43] Perry Thompson: So it's going to take getting involved with them and getting, you know, getting them on your podcast here and have them explain to people what's out there. I mean, it's
[00.48.53] Michael Kirack: I mean, we're a hidden gem.
[00.48.56] Perry Thompson: We absolutely are. We are. And that's what I just, you know, I know we're dealing with like the prison closing or whatever, but all those things that you talked about, the lakes close by, the you know, there is no traffic. It's a five minute commute to work. People are super friendly. Um, people want this community to succeed and these areas to succeed. Um. You know, and I, I just, I, I've, I'm super hopeful. I don't know why because the trends are down, but I feel like, uh, you know, we we have brought a lot of a lot of jobs to the region. And that's one of the things I feel like we have these incredible kids that graduate from these schools that have good work ethic, that haven't been on, you know, on screens and, and not been on the outdoors like a lot of the kids that are raised in the really, um, urban communities. Um, and I want, I want to be able to way to retain those kids. And I'm really proud that we have several, you know, high school graduates that come right out of high school and go to work for us and stay here. You know, um, our most tenured employee is a Burney High School graduate, and he's he's been with the company for 28 years, and he's only worked here. And, you know, that guy is, uh, he's an incredible he's an incredible hope for me and what we can continue to do. But, um. Yeah. And I appreciate what you're doing because it starts with we need jobs to. Right? So we've got to have people have to have a way to make a living. And that's one of the things there's a lot of, um, a lot of government jobs around Susan. Bill. But the private sector growth is what I feel like we need to be focusing on what you've lived there longer than me. So give me your thoughts on that.
[00.50.43] Michael Kirack: Yeah, we we need jobs. I mean, we need good paying jobs because, I mean, still, the cost of living here is not cheap, right? And we need to have a family, you know, with a couple of kids and live the American dream. I mean, you got to make some good money and you got to have medical benefits. I mean, and that's what's getting harder. I mean, in the private sector to provide that stuff. I have medical benefits for my employees, and it costs an arm and a leg.
[00.51.09] Perry Thompson: It does, it does. And it's one of those unchecked costs that feel I feel like it goes up 20% every year, and there's just seems to be no cap to the damn thing. It's unbelievable.
[00.51.19] Michael Kirack: Right? It's crazy. Yeah,
[00.51.20] Perry Thompson: yeah, yeah. So. Well, anyway, um. I think that your message about how beautiful it is, where where we live, how many, you know, opportunities for recreation there is, I think that was was really well said. And, you know, you're doing your part on creating more jobs. I'm trying to do my part and creating more jobs. Uh, we just need to get more people involved. And recognizing this community is so special. So I really appreciate your time on that. And hopefully we can continue to get. So what I would need from you to help me out, think about some good people. Uh, that would be helpful on that arena to have on this podcast. So thinking about that. And so next time we talk, give me some names because you, you are really, really tied into the community. Well, and I would love to hear your feedback on that okay.
[00.52.13] Michael Kirack: We'll do okay.
[00.52.14] Perry Thompson: All right buddy. Well thank you and good luck to your kids today. Which way are you going to go to Mount Shasta? Are you going to Portola or you're trying to hit on
[00.52.22] Michael Kirack: Portola? All right. Awesome.
[00.52.24] Perry Thompson: All right, well, tell tell Landon good luck. And I'm expecting to score at least 25 a game right now.
[00.52.29] Michael Kirack: Okay, um, he's averaging, uh, 29 points a game, and he is number one in California, and he's number two in the United States.
[00.52.40] Perry Thompson: You got to be
[00.52.40] Michael Kirack: kidding me. Uh, if you pull, if you
[00.52.43] Perry Thompson: pull it, us, if
[00.52.44] Michael Kirack: you pull it up on MaxPreps, he showed me, I go, are you're full of shit. And he's all, no, dad, here it is.
[00.52.52] Perry Thompson: Well, so here's here's what I would say. I'm a I'm a I've been a basketball coach in the community for quite a few years. Haven't done it in a few years. But I'm going to tell you, every coach looks at that MaxPreps and he will be getting doubled and triple team to moving forward. So that will continue to be more and more challenging as the season goes on. But good for him. That's amazing.
[00.53.10] Michael Kirack: The last game we were at. They had watched his film. In fact, two of the kids told him, that's all we did. Our last two practices was watch deer film. Watch film on Landon. They double teamed him the whole game. He still put up 31 points.
[00.53.27] Perry Thompson: Oh my God,
[00.53.29] Michael Kirack: he's just. In the end, he had a 102 temperature when he played.
[00.53.34] Perry Thompson: No way.
[00.53.35] Michael Kirack: I mean the drive, both my boys. The drive is insane. I mean, if you can bottle that shit up and sell it, it would be crazy. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Well spoken. Like rightly so, a proud dad. I absolutely love that. So, hey, tell Kim I said hi. I appreciate your time. And, uh, have have a great safe travels because I know it's going to be pretty snowy, so travel safe, okay. All right. Thanks, Perry.
[00.54.02] Perry Thompson: All right. Thanks, Michael. Appreciate your time, bud.
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